I have worked in Ag with many many illegal immigrants and also know this is a ridiculous stance . They definitely do NOT pay taxes and commit fewer crimes . This trope is trotted out by ppl who don’t know any of them. Since the boarder was blown open by Biden the quality of ppl in question has deteriorated significantly. Last year I found crack pipes & empty alcohol bottles in common areas and I dealt with a domestic abuse situation ON the job. They tell me many of them came here to specifically fix ongoing health issues that would be too expensive in their countries of origin . While the majority of them are hardworking , liberal women like to infantilize migrants and make children out of grown adults in a perverse savior complex. They send most of their money in remittances home and so are even more dependent upon services to support themselves .
Decades ago, a woman from Guatemala told me she came her for heart surgery for her son. I really liked her and she was on her way to becoming naturalized. I didn't blame her for coming to the US for an operation as I would have done the same. I knew that CA officials/businesses encouraged their migration. But I had no idea how untenable the situation would become.
Adam - brilliant common sense. Simple, straightforward and clearly stated. We need more of this. I’ve said now for two decades that every illegal alien “immigrant” is a criminal. That start out that way on day one simply by being here. And yet we treat them all like they’re all noble refugees of war or political persecution. Nonsense. The overwhelming majority are economic refugees. They are criminals the moment their feel cross the border and they should be treated that way. I personally don’t want ICE to just round up violent criminals or gang members, I want them all rounded up and expelled. Any other assertion is nonsense.
Thank you again. Great common sense column…as usual.
I am going to push back where I normally don't Adam, because you have made your case in a reasonable way, which I appreciate.
First, I agree that technically all persons here without documents can be called criminals. I also agree that all laws should be enforced. And I further agree that deportation of all violent criminals should be expedited.
My primary concern is with due process and humane treatment. Do you share that concern?
Second, your points about net benefit are interesting. I have three responses.
-- I understand that many undocumented immigrants file taxes with a TIN rather than a social security number. So not all filers have stolen a SSN.
-- You consider any crime, no matter how minor, to be a net loss to us. But many of the illegals who commit minor crimes are personally a net benefit. Indeed, many of them are better "citizens" than many of us. I know a delightful, loving, hardworking housekeeper who complains that her teens were respectful until they entered American schools and were exposed to our disrespectful kids.
-- I haven't heard anyone make the "attractive nuisance" argument. Americans can be held liable if a child falls into their unfenced pool. So too, America has been an attractive nuisance, all but encouraging immigrants to come here. I believe we owe something beyond just due process and humanity to those who have established lives here, especially the net positive kind. For God's sake, let them contact loved ones and handle their affairs before deporting them safely to their HOME countries.
I would agree that due process and humane treatment are important. I think what's happened in the media is them projecting that there is no due process or humane treatment, especially by making Minnesota a battleground.
The reality is that ICE agents know exactly where someone is (or at least should be) because of due process. These are people with deportation orders after going through immigration courts (likely for claiming asylum). Are there some strange outliers? Probably. However, repeatedly it is shown that they are targeting people with standing orders for removal and they knew exactly where they were because of this process.
I can't remember the percentage given but a large percentage of people who claim asylum don't come to court. Some purposely come here without identification to get around the process and they go into the shadows of our society. 60 Minutes, during the Biden administration, was at the border and saw Chinese people coming through all day and they were throwing away all of their identification. The same happens in Europe when coming over the boats. They want identification to be difficult or impossible.
In regards to good citizens, I think it's a mistake to see their existence as victimless and harmless. For example, I could know someone who is wonderful on a personal level but here illegally. Well, he needs to drive to get to his job but doing that is illegal. He then gets into an accident. No one dies but there is damage and he has no insurance. I've talked to several people dealing with these situations.
When your existence is illegal, things become plausible that wouldn't for other people. This is why identity theft is prevalent because it's a way for them to survive in the shadows. I'm also against illegal immigration because many of these people are setup as indentured servants and owe mafia/cartels for helping them get smuggled. It's a debt that is leveraged by the life of people they love in some cases.
It's a black market. I have a friend that told me that most (if not all) of the hot dog and food truck Mexican guys in LA owe money to the cartel. Is that the type of society we really want? I don't want people with a gun to the head of their family members if they don't pay up.
I don't think we should reward people for doing something they shouldn't have done in the first place only because they got away with it for a long time. There are no statute of limitations for coming here illegally.
I'm not anti-illegal immigration on a personal level, as if I don't care about people (not saying you're saying that.) I'm anti-illegal immigration because I see how it creates an unfair situation for Americans and non-Americans.
For the record, my father immigrated here from Trinidad and met my American mother. Immigration has its benefits when it makes sense. My father came here legally and went through all the checks. I want sensible immigration and illegal immigration makes no sense and is a national security risk. We'd all want to know who is in our house because who is in the borders of our home matter. I feel the same way when it comes to our nation.
I appreciate your points, Adam, that ICE is picking up the right people who don't come to court appointments, don't have ID, don't have insurance, and even feed gangs by being targets for blackmailing and indentured servanthood.
I particularly appreciate your point that you respect immigrants who have taken the fully legal path.
I weigh all these factors differently against the amount of good many illegals contribute, the length of time they are here, and the roadblocks we've built into their legal path. I want to see those factors taken into consideration on a case-by-case basis. So yes, I would like to see amnesty for those here a long time with a clean record and making a net contribution. Are there any conditions under which you'd approve of that?
I also believe the difference in how we see ICE is due to the coverage we see. I see ICE picking up people who were following the process to get green cards, including spouses of citizens. They get thrown into unheated or cooled cells, sleep on cement floors with light on all night, with little food or access to bathrooms. No contact with family or lawyers. Family doesn't even know where they are. And some are then deported to places that are not their home country -- including to torture prison in El Salvador or sex slavery in Sudan--with no hope of getting out. All of that I see as inhumane and lacking due process. Are you seeing any of that?
I would like to think that if we were seeing the same information, our positions would be much closer.
B & E is a crime. Many of their other crimes, sex trafficking, abuse, rape, extortion, etc. are against their FELLOW community members. Since victims are illegal also, those crimes go unreported.
A lot of prosecuters won't charge illegal immigrants, or charge them with lesser crimes. Also probably some counties won't put on paper someone they have charged is illegal. It is also true, if they commit a crime they can effectively relocate and disappear.
Up until Obama, I had a great deal of compassion for those who came here illegally knowing that various officials and businesses entities encouraged/facilitated such action. And then the shift came to 'stolen land' demands and my compassion shifted. I still feel for those who have been here for decades with both Dem and Rep administrations with a wink wink toughness on the stance. But with the floodgates opened by Biden, along with Neo-Marxist/Postmodern rhetoric espoused, my compassion is drying up.
I have worked in Ag with many many illegal immigrants and also know this is a ridiculous stance . They definitely do NOT pay taxes and commit fewer crimes . This trope is trotted out by ppl who don’t know any of them. Since the boarder was blown open by Biden the quality of ppl in question has deteriorated significantly. Last year I found crack pipes & empty alcohol bottles in common areas and I dealt with a domestic abuse situation ON the job. They tell me many of them came here to specifically fix ongoing health issues that would be too expensive in their countries of origin . While the majority of them are hardworking , liberal women like to infantilize migrants and make children out of grown adults in a perverse savior complex. They send most of their money in remittances home and so are even more dependent upon services to support themselves .
Decades ago, a woman from Guatemala told me she came her for heart surgery for her son. I really liked her and she was on her way to becoming naturalized. I didn't blame her for coming to the US for an operation as I would have done the same. I knew that CA officials/businesses encouraged their migration. But I had no idea how untenable the situation would become.
Adam - brilliant common sense. Simple, straightforward and clearly stated. We need more of this. I’ve said now for two decades that every illegal alien “immigrant” is a criminal. That start out that way on day one simply by being here. And yet we treat them all like they’re all noble refugees of war or political persecution. Nonsense. The overwhelming majority are economic refugees. They are criminals the moment their feel cross the border and they should be treated that way. I personally don’t want ICE to just round up violent criminals or gang members, I want them all rounded up and expelled. Any other assertion is nonsense.
Thank you again. Great common sense column…as usual.
It's my pleasure. I agree with everything you said. Thanks for your comment.
Agree.
I am going to push back where I normally don't Adam, because you have made your case in a reasonable way, which I appreciate.
First, I agree that technically all persons here without documents can be called criminals. I also agree that all laws should be enforced. And I further agree that deportation of all violent criminals should be expedited.
My primary concern is with due process and humane treatment. Do you share that concern?
Second, your points about net benefit are interesting. I have three responses.
-- I understand that many undocumented immigrants file taxes with a TIN rather than a social security number. So not all filers have stolen a SSN.
-- You consider any crime, no matter how minor, to be a net loss to us. But many of the illegals who commit minor crimes are personally a net benefit. Indeed, many of them are better "citizens" than many of us. I know a delightful, loving, hardworking housekeeper who complains that her teens were respectful until they entered American schools and were exposed to our disrespectful kids.
-- I haven't heard anyone make the "attractive nuisance" argument. Americans can be held liable if a child falls into their unfenced pool. So too, America has been an attractive nuisance, all but encouraging immigrants to come here. I believe we owe something beyond just due process and humanity to those who have established lives here, especially the net positive kind. For God's sake, let them contact loved ones and handle their affairs before deporting them safely to their HOME countries.
Does any of this make sense to you?
I appreciate this type of response.
I would agree that due process and humane treatment are important. I think what's happened in the media is them projecting that there is no due process or humane treatment, especially by making Minnesota a battleground.
The reality is that ICE agents know exactly where someone is (or at least should be) because of due process. These are people with deportation orders after going through immigration courts (likely for claiming asylum). Are there some strange outliers? Probably. However, repeatedly it is shown that they are targeting people with standing orders for removal and they knew exactly where they were because of this process.
I can't remember the percentage given but a large percentage of people who claim asylum don't come to court. Some purposely come here without identification to get around the process and they go into the shadows of our society. 60 Minutes, during the Biden administration, was at the border and saw Chinese people coming through all day and they were throwing away all of their identification. The same happens in Europe when coming over the boats. They want identification to be difficult or impossible.
In regards to good citizens, I think it's a mistake to see their existence as victimless and harmless. For example, I could know someone who is wonderful on a personal level but here illegally. Well, he needs to drive to get to his job but doing that is illegal. He then gets into an accident. No one dies but there is damage and he has no insurance. I've talked to several people dealing with these situations.
When your existence is illegal, things become plausible that wouldn't for other people. This is why identity theft is prevalent because it's a way for them to survive in the shadows. I'm also against illegal immigration because many of these people are setup as indentured servants and owe mafia/cartels for helping them get smuggled. It's a debt that is leveraged by the life of people they love in some cases.
It's a black market. I have a friend that told me that most (if not all) of the hot dog and food truck Mexican guys in LA owe money to the cartel. Is that the type of society we really want? I don't want people with a gun to the head of their family members if they don't pay up.
I don't think we should reward people for doing something they shouldn't have done in the first place only because they got away with it for a long time. There are no statute of limitations for coming here illegally.
I'm not anti-illegal immigration on a personal level, as if I don't care about people (not saying you're saying that.) I'm anti-illegal immigration because I see how it creates an unfair situation for Americans and non-Americans.
For the record, my father immigrated here from Trinidad and met my American mother. Immigration has its benefits when it makes sense. My father came here legally and went through all the checks. I want sensible immigration and illegal immigration makes no sense and is a national security risk. We'd all want to know who is in our house because who is in the borders of our home matter. I feel the same way when it comes to our nation.
I appreciate your points, Adam, that ICE is picking up the right people who don't come to court appointments, don't have ID, don't have insurance, and even feed gangs by being targets for blackmailing and indentured servanthood.
I particularly appreciate your point that you respect immigrants who have taken the fully legal path.
I weigh all these factors differently against the amount of good many illegals contribute, the length of time they are here, and the roadblocks we've built into their legal path. I want to see those factors taken into consideration on a case-by-case basis. So yes, I would like to see amnesty for those here a long time with a clean record and making a net contribution. Are there any conditions under which you'd approve of that?
I also believe the difference in how we see ICE is due to the coverage we see. I see ICE picking up people who were following the process to get green cards, including spouses of citizens. They get thrown into unheated or cooled cells, sleep on cement floors with light on all night, with little food or access to bathrooms. No contact with family or lawyers. Family doesn't even know where they are. And some are then deported to places that are not their home country -- including to torture prison in El Salvador or sex slavery in Sudan--with no hope of getting out. All of that I see as inhumane and lacking due process. Are you seeing any of that?
I would like to think that if we were seeing the same information, our positions would be much closer.
Thanks for hearing me out.
B & E is a crime. Many of their other crimes, sex trafficking, abuse, rape, extortion, etc. are against their FELLOW community members. Since victims are illegal also, those crimes go unreported.
A lot of prosecuters won't charge illegal immigrants, or charge them with lesser crimes. Also probably some counties won't put on paper someone they have charged is illegal. It is also true, if they commit a crime they can effectively relocate and disappear.
Up until Obama, I had a great deal of compassion for those who came here illegally knowing that various officials and businesses entities encouraged/facilitated such action. And then the shift came to 'stolen land' demands and my compassion shifted. I still feel for those who have been here for decades with both Dem and Rep administrations with a wink wink toughness on the stance. But with the floodgates opened by Biden, along with Neo-Marxist/Postmodern rhetoric espoused, my compassion is drying up.
Liars.