I have a simple rule -- if you seek a respectful conversation, I'm game -- no matter how much we disagree. But if what you are really doing is simply a one-sided attack and you ignore my views, that is not a conversation. It is abusive and uncivil. Too many on the Left claim they are tolerant while exhibiting toxic, abusive rhetoric. And sadly, this also insulates them from learning facts to overcome the lies they have embraced in their hate cult..... This is why they are losing more support every day, as people in the middle, or within their own ranks, observe this folly.
After Church, we gather for donuts and coffee. We don't talk politics. One of my favorite people hates Trump, while I have never been more glad at my selection because I got Kennedy, Bhattacharya, Harmeet Dhillon, and Gabbard. Someone tried inserting a dig at Trump, and we all politely ignored it. That said, this courtesy is often not extended in deep Blue areas. Recently, I had revisionist CRT thrown at me at a museum, where I learned that the Spaniards oppressed the Muslims when they kicked them out of their country. So the warriors who conquered much of Europe in the 7th Century were actually oppressed by White Europeans. This was just one of her doozies. I told the docent her comments were offensive, to which she replied in true earnestness that it was the truth, so we needed to discuss it. I walked out and wrote an email of complaint. It was ignored because her boss will be of the same ilk. We no longer have public library fines because it hurts the poor. They have no idea how condescending it is to assume that following a calendar is restricted to a few.
After many years, I finally had a chance to watch South Park. I watched the episode on Trump using the Satan bit that they did for Hussein, which I thought was weird then. The episode skewered Christianity and Trump. Knowing it is South Park, I thought this was fair, but I became curious about what they did with Biden and Covid the man who encouraged war against the dissidents during Covid. A time when Chomsky called for the unvaxxed to be interned in camps, and Hochul was building them in NY. When I ran a search, no episodes came up about this. Only a few Reddit posts asking why there hadn't been any episodes. Real people were injured, and parents lost children. One man has spoken at many events about the loss of his son. I've watched in a few short years a burly man reduced to walking with a cane. He now assists with disasters and praises God. I know I am in the presence of a better human than I will ever be. So I am torn between being polite, knowing that there are many things to discuss besides politics, and enraged that these same people stood by as their fellow Americans were ridiculed and threatened - all for the greater good.
Your post strikes close to home with me. I lost some good friends when I started to question why I shouldn’t vote for Trump (all I heard were groans of outrage or outright hostility towards me). I would ask people to explain their side (silent rebuke) or if they actually read anything about Trump (again scorn and derision).
This is no longer the Yankees versus the Red Sox; this has become a religious Crusade battling over the New Jerusalem—and we know how well the original Crusades turned out.
I just embarked on writing about my weekend with friends, having vowed to avoid discussing politics with them. It came up, organically, though, that the declining birth-rate will result in downsizing schools. Friend snarks that "some people" blame feminism for the decline in birth rates. Sitting at the table are two childless women (myself included); he's gay, his sister didn't marry her partner, and they share a DOG. Of course feminism is among the causes of the precipitous decline in birth rates.
I attempted to continue this with another woman in our party, who in the midst of my proposal that we adjust our values to biological reality, i.e. that women's fertility window is actually pretty short, ergo why not have kids early, THEN pursue a career, but before I could lay out the support for that, the "listener" chided me for not acknowledging that NOT ALL WOMEN WANT CHILDREN, which spawned a ten-minute back and forth on why it shouldn't be necessary to acknowledge that because OBVIOUSLY some women don't want children but that has nothing to do with re-engineering our values around children first, then career.
Note that the person schooling me in this way had her first and only child at 42, did not marry the father, but sleeps on the floor of his apartment with her 13-year-old son's floor mat next to hers (he has never had his own room), and lives on child support, having not worked a day since 2007....
Anyway, my point is that inevitably, someone will lower the quality of discourse with some stupid injunction like "you have to say not all..." even when the word GENERALLY was used.
I’m old and remember when this was the rule of politeness in conversation with friends and family and I really think it’s a good practise and you’re right there are more interesting and important things to discuss with our people. You’re right, also, that most people aren’t curious they are looking for a fight of a debate, they have archetypes they project onto people and they’re seeking to affirm that mindset. It’s futile to engage that.
Anger-rage-outrage are the new holy trinity. Or they’re the popular drug of choice, the emotional crack many choose to numb their minds. It’s exhausting and it’s a joy stealer.
I mean it's like how many people really read a ok about the issues their concerned about, especially a book with data and maybe some statistics hopefully.
Discussing politics with a friend that agrees with me is boring. A quick highlight is fine, laughing at the absurd lasts 30 seconds. After that it’s on to the fun stuff or the how can I help stuff. My whole family hates that I stand firm against their attempts to “get through to me”. Also very boring. Many use politics as a construct of who they are. A very bad idea. Anyone who disagrees is seen as an existential threat. Many on the right believe in God, are Christians. That is their construct. They see politics as a way to protect not become. The left see politics as enlightenment, anything that questions that becomes their “spiritual” enemy. If anyone is truly interested in solving problems, I’m in. If the problem has to fit into their political construct, I’m out.
People are *feeling at you*, not thinking, as you are doing.
We've all been trained to replace thought with emotion. Most people literally don't understand that they are not, actually, thinking. They're not mentating. They are *feeling*.
Thanks for this. It's quite validating, especially now as someone who has lost a dear friend merely because he doesn't like the way I vote after asking me about it. It's sad, and it doesn't need to be.
Well said, it's really become the only way to maintain certain relationships. Though it's sad to think that your family members are most certainly discussing you negatively behind your back based on assumptions they drew from things they see in the media. I would prefer to be able to talk about it and express my point of view, but I know they wouldn't listen because again, the media has convinced them that supporting Trump in any way automatically makes you a hateful bigot. I mean, your well-articulated work is publicly available - if your family members attack you instead of just reading your stuff, then what chance do the rest of us have.
High emotions will always overshadow good-will. As long as you become that person's avatar, you'll never stray away from their animosity.
It's not fair to me if Trump does something that I get blamed for it or to claim that I support it when I only had 2 options for people to vote for. You're not allowed to be pragmatic anymore.
Yes, I agree. Political discourse in the news and on social media has devolved into an unending cycle of trash talk leading up to WWF matches. There are many people addicted to the anger and adrenaline rush. Getting them hooked was deliberate, in order to control.
There are, fortunately, many who want no part of it. They do their work, cooperate with their neighbors, take care of their families, appreciate their blessings, and rely on faith to keep them centered.
@Adam this is well articulated, yet I wonder whether you are instead embodying something higher here.
You take great pains to articulate your positions and reasoning - on your media channels. Therefore your friends already automatically will know where you stand - if they take the time to come here and read them. If they don't, why waste time starting from zero in an IRL discussion?
Perhaps the boundary is that you wisely refuse to muddy the waters between relationship and conviction. If your close circle doesn't take initiative to interact with you here, I understand why you would not want to have a likely draining, less clear IRL conversation.
It's a good lesson for other deep, unconventional thinkers out here, including myself.
It's interesting because I'd rather they not read my stuff and simultaneously, not be interested in my work.
But...if they're going to be interested or talk about me, I'd rather they actually take the time to read/watch my content. Instead, what I get is rumors or half interest to misinterpret. I can't tell you how many hour+ podcasts I've done going into great detail and they still have zero clue what I think.
It probably makes it extra uncomfortable to verbally refer them back here - when they likely think they could "just" ask you to bring them up to speed verbally (which both parties likely don't have patience for or the ability to quickly do).
I have had family members in healthcare my whole life and this seems like a similar boundary that I have watched them navigate (and I have also had to navigate / reinforce boundaries when asked for favors, etc...). Friends in the 80s had no clue about HIPAA privacy issues in our rural town - and would overstep in various over-familiar ways (which they were OK doing, but on the other side would be a serious privacy violation).
The analogy is not quite the same - but the theme is reinforcing boundaries and trying to politely shield the discomfort from the other party.
Perhaps this post is a great first step towards reinforcing stronger boundaries Adam. I hope so!
You have put this so well. I am in this position. I have had to tell some of my adult kids that I will not discuss politics under any circumstances because they have tried to bait me. One threatened self harm because of our votes, assuming, as you point out, that we support things we don't, or have reasonable arguments for. No, we are N**is. I self-censor 100% now. That hurts because moral voices are needed, and I cannot speak up. The worst part is they know better. I have been a vocal advocate for free speech and discerning scrutiny of all that we hear across the political spectrum, of applying critical thinking and doubt to especially the people on your side. They know I'm not a populist or personality worshipper, but Tik Tok tells them what I really think, so that's the end of that. It's truly devastating.
I live in Scotland which with Wales has the most “progressive” political leadership though most people are left on the economy and right on culture/values. But the educated progressive class are totally blinkered. On all the key issues Israel. Immigration, Net Zero, trans identity , I am estranged from the friends I had when I was left progressive. I am also the outlier in discussions with my colleagues in a technocrat workplace, who raise these issues constantly or show symbolic support yet do not engage or disengage with outright hostility when called to account.
In Scotland as in the whole of the U.K., We have a growing problem of illegal unvetted migration of Muslim men from backward parts of the Islamposphere. The progressive, especially educated left are in total denial about this. Tens of thousands of working class powerless white children were monstrously raped, tortured and murdered by clans of Muslim men. The sexual offence rate for the hundreds of thousand of Afghans and Eritreans we have had imposed on us is 20% higher than that of the native pollution.in Glasgow 60% of housing demand is from Asylum seekers most of whom have no love of our country. I am labelled far right and Trumpy whenever I bring these issues up. Yet the working class people with whom I grew up are worried and concerned. The university system (from which I benefitted to the highest level), has created a cadre of people who regardless of subject emit progressive talking points rather than engage in debate. Half of my family won’t discuss these issues because they just want to take positions. To coin a phrase they seek to signal first discover later (if ever). I have stopped discussing politics but I wonder how long I can keep quiet.
People can't understand nuance. As you note, voting for Trump was a pragmatic decision about which way one wanted the country to go in general and doesn't imply approval of his character or an endorsement of each of his policies (some are good, other quite bad). We are given just two choices and usual neither is very good.
Regarding friends I eschew politics with them because there are other topics more pressing and there is too much chance of causing an argument. I had one friend, a Democrat, and we would talk about it, his views different from mine, but I don't take on the burden of changing another's mind and avoid becoming upset even if I think they're wrong. Maintaining friendship is more important.
Thank you for your honesty and insight! Canada is in very much the same position. Our Conservative leader has some significant shortcomings, but he’s, by far, the lesser of the two evils. He lost his seat in Ontario and is running in a by-election today. “Somebody” has padded the ballot with 200+ names running against him. Dirty politics, indeed…
I have a simple rule -- if you seek a respectful conversation, I'm game -- no matter how much we disagree. But if what you are really doing is simply a one-sided attack and you ignore my views, that is not a conversation. It is abusive and uncivil. Too many on the Left claim they are tolerant while exhibiting toxic, abusive rhetoric. And sadly, this also insulates them from learning facts to overcome the lies they have embraced in their hate cult..... This is why they are losing more support every day, as people in the middle, or within their own ranks, observe this folly.
After Church, we gather for donuts and coffee. We don't talk politics. One of my favorite people hates Trump, while I have never been more glad at my selection because I got Kennedy, Bhattacharya, Harmeet Dhillon, and Gabbard. Someone tried inserting a dig at Trump, and we all politely ignored it. That said, this courtesy is often not extended in deep Blue areas. Recently, I had revisionist CRT thrown at me at a museum, where I learned that the Spaniards oppressed the Muslims when they kicked them out of their country. So the warriors who conquered much of Europe in the 7th Century were actually oppressed by White Europeans. This was just one of her doozies. I told the docent her comments were offensive, to which she replied in true earnestness that it was the truth, so we needed to discuss it. I walked out and wrote an email of complaint. It was ignored because her boss will be of the same ilk. We no longer have public library fines because it hurts the poor. They have no idea how condescending it is to assume that following a calendar is restricted to a few.
After many years, I finally had a chance to watch South Park. I watched the episode on Trump using the Satan bit that they did for Hussein, which I thought was weird then. The episode skewered Christianity and Trump. Knowing it is South Park, I thought this was fair, but I became curious about what they did with Biden and Covid the man who encouraged war against the dissidents during Covid. A time when Chomsky called for the unvaxxed to be interned in camps, and Hochul was building them in NY. When I ran a search, no episodes came up about this. Only a few Reddit posts asking why there hadn't been any episodes. Real people were injured, and parents lost children. One man has spoken at many events about the loss of his son. I've watched in a few short years a burly man reduced to walking with a cane. He now assists with disasters and praises God. I know I am in the presence of a better human than I will ever be. So I am torn between being polite, knowing that there are many things to discuss besides politics, and enraged that these same people stood by as their fellow Americans were ridiculed and threatened - all for the greater good.
Your post strikes close to home with me. I lost some good friends when I started to question why I shouldn’t vote for Trump (all I heard were groans of outrage or outright hostility towards me). I would ask people to explain their side (silent rebuke) or if they actually read anything about Trump (again scorn and derision).
This is no longer the Yankees versus the Red Sox; this has become a religious Crusade battling over the New Jerusalem—and we know how well the original Crusades turned out.
I just embarked on writing about my weekend with friends, having vowed to avoid discussing politics with them. It came up, organically, though, that the declining birth-rate will result in downsizing schools. Friend snarks that "some people" blame feminism for the decline in birth rates. Sitting at the table are two childless women (myself included); he's gay, his sister didn't marry her partner, and they share a DOG. Of course feminism is among the causes of the precipitous decline in birth rates.
I attempted to continue this with another woman in our party, who in the midst of my proposal that we adjust our values to biological reality, i.e. that women's fertility window is actually pretty short, ergo why not have kids early, THEN pursue a career, but before I could lay out the support for that, the "listener" chided me for not acknowledging that NOT ALL WOMEN WANT CHILDREN, which spawned a ten-minute back and forth on why it shouldn't be necessary to acknowledge that because OBVIOUSLY some women don't want children but that has nothing to do with re-engineering our values around children first, then career.
Note that the person schooling me in this way had her first and only child at 42, did not marry the father, but sleeps on the floor of his apartment with her 13-year-old son's floor mat next to hers (he has never had his own room), and lives on child support, having not worked a day since 2007....
Anyway, my point is that inevitably, someone will lower the quality of discourse with some stupid injunction like "you have to say not all..." even when the word GENERALLY was used.
I’m old and remember when this was the rule of politeness in conversation with friends and family and I really think it’s a good practise and you’re right there are more interesting and important things to discuss with our people. You’re right, also, that most people aren’t curious they are looking for a fight of a debate, they have archetypes they project onto people and they’re seeking to affirm that mindset. It’s futile to engage that.
Exactly. There is just no point in engaging in that. It's just angerfest.
Anger-rage-outrage are the new holy trinity. Or they’re the popular drug of choice, the emotional crack many choose to numb their minds. It’s exhausting and it’s a joy stealer.
I mean it's like how many people really read a ok about the issues their concerned about, especially a book with data and maybe some statistics hopefully.
Discussing politics with a friend that agrees with me is boring. A quick highlight is fine, laughing at the absurd lasts 30 seconds. After that it’s on to the fun stuff or the how can I help stuff. My whole family hates that I stand firm against their attempts to “get through to me”. Also very boring. Many use politics as a construct of who they are. A very bad idea. Anyone who disagrees is seen as an existential threat. Many on the right believe in God, are Christians. That is their construct. They see politics as a way to protect not become. The left see politics as enlightenment, anything that questions that becomes their “spiritual” enemy. If anyone is truly interested in solving problems, I’m in. If the problem has to fit into their political construct, I’m out.
I'm with you
People are *feeling at you*, not thinking, as you are doing.
We've all been trained to replace thought with emotion. Most people literally don't understand that they are not, actually, thinking. They're not mentating. They are *feeling*.
Thanks for this. It's quite validating, especially now as someone who has lost a dear friend merely because he doesn't like the way I vote after asking me about it. It's sad, and it doesn't need to be.
Well said, it's really become the only way to maintain certain relationships. Though it's sad to think that your family members are most certainly discussing you negatively behind your back based on assumptions they drew from things they see in the media. I would prefer to be able to talk about it and express my point of view, but I know they wouldn't listen because again, the media has convinced them that supporting Trump in any way automatically makes you a hateful bigot. I mean, your well-articulated work is publicly available - if your family members attack you instead of just reading your stuff, then what chance do the rest of us have.
High emotions will always overshadow good-will. As long as you become that person's avatar, you'll never stray away from their animosity.
It's not fair to me if Trump does something that I get blamed for it or to claim that I support it when I only had 2 options for people to vote for. You're not allowed to be pragmatic anymore.
I agree, politics has an outsized influence on people’s lives.
100 years ago if something in Washington went down you found out about it months later.
Now you can watch it all go down in real time. It’s not normal and it is tearing our remaining social fabric apart.
Yes, I agree. Political discourse in the news and on social media has devolved into an unending cycle of trash talk leading up to WWF matches. There are many people addicted to the anger and adrenaline rush. Getting them hooked was deliberate, in order to control.
There are, fortunately, many who want no part of it. They do their work, cooperate with their neighbors, take care of their families, appreciate their blessings, and rely on faith to keep them centered.
Read “Hate, Inc.” by Matt Taibbi. Prophetic.
@Adam this is well articulated, yet I wonder whether you are instead embodying something higher here.
You take great pains to articulate your positions and reasoning - on your media channels. Therefore your friends already automatically will know where you stand - if they take the time to come here and read them. If they don't, why waste time starting from zero in an IRL discussion?
Perhaps the boundary is that you wisely refuse to muddy the waters between relationship and conviction. If your close circle doesn't take initiative to interact with you here, I understand why you would not want to have a likely draining, less clear IRL conversation.
It's a good lesson for other deep, unconventional thinkers out here, including myself.
It's interesting because I'd rather they not read my stuff and simultaneously, not be interested in my work.
But...if they're going to be interested or talk about me, I'd rather they actually take the time to read/watch my content. Instead, what I get is rumors or half interest to misinterpret. I can't tell you how many hour+ podcasts I've done going into great detail and they still have zero clue what I think.
Sounds like the news programs to which we are subjected. Rumors, innuendo, half truths and outright lies.
This is a wise policy Adam.
It probably makes it extra uncomfortable to verbally refer them back here - when they likely think they could "just" ask you to bring them up to speed verbally (which both parties likely don't have patience for or the ability to quickly do).
I have had family members in healthcare my whole life and this seems like a similar boundary that I have watched them navigate (and I have also had to navigate / reinforce boundaries when asked for favors, etc...). Friends in the 80s had no clue about HIPAA privacy issues in our rural town - and would overstep in various over-familiar ways (which they were OK doing, but on the other side would be a serious privacy violation).
The analogy is not quite the same - but the theme is reinforcing boundaries and trying to politely shield the discomfort from the other party.
Perhaps this post is a great first step towards reinforcing stronger boundaries Adam. I hope so!
I hope so too. Thank you!
You have put this so well. I am in this position. I have had to tell some of my adult kids that I will not discuss politics under any circumstances because they have tried to bait me. One threatened self harm because of our votes, assuming, as you point out, that we support things we don't, or have reasonable arguments for. No, we are N**is. I self-censor 100% now. That hurts because moral voices are needed, and I cannot speak up. The worst part is they know better. I have been a vocal advocate for free speech and discerning scrutiny of all that we hear across the political spectrum, of applying critical thinking and doubt to especially the people on your side. They know I'm not a populist or personality worshipper, but Tik Tok tells them what I really think, so that's the end of that. It's truly devastating.
I'm really sorry you're going through this.
I live in Scotland which with Wales has the most “progressive” political leadership though most people are left on the economy and right on culture/values. But the educated progressive class are totally blinkered. On all the key issues Israel. Immigration, Net Zero, trans identity , I am estranged from the friends I had when I was left progressive. I am also the outlier in discussions with my colleagues in a technocrat workplace, who raise these issues constantly or show symbolic support yet do not engage or disengage with outright hostility when called to account.
In Scotland as in the whole of the U.K., We have a growing problem of illegal unvetted migration of Muslim men from backward parts of the Islamposphere. The progressive, especially educated left are in total denial about this. Tens of thousands of working class powerless white children were monstrously raped, tortured and murdered by clans of Muslim men. The sexual offence rate for the hundreds of thousand of Afghans and Eritreans we have had imposed on us is 20% higher than that of the native pollution.in Glasgow 60% of housing demand is from Asylum seekers most of whom have no love of our country. I am labelled far right and Trumpy whenever I bring these issues up. Yet the working class people with whom I grew up are worried and concerned. The university system (from which I benefitted to the highest level), has created a cadre of people who regardless of subject emit progressive talking points rather than engage in debate. Half of my family won’t discuss these issues because they just want to take positions. To coin a phrase they seek to signal first discover later (if ever). I have stopped discussing politics but I wonder how long I can keep quiet.
People can't understand nuance. As you note, voting for Trump was a pragmatic decision about which way one wanted the country to go in general and doesn't imply approval of his character or an endorsement of each of his policies (some are good, other quite bad). We are given just two choices and usual neither is very good.
Regarding friends I eschew politics with them because there are other topics more pressing and there is too much chance of causing an argument. I had one friend, a Democrat, and we would talk about it, his views different from mine, but I don't take on the burden of changing another's mind and avoid becoming upset even if I think they're wrong. Maintaining friendship is more important.
Exactly.
Thank you for your honesty and insight! Canada is in very much the same position. Our Conservative leader has some significant shortcomings, but he’s, by far, the lesser of the two evils. He lost his seat in Ontario and is running in a by-election today. “Somebody” has padded the ballot with 200+ names running against him. Dirty politics, indeed…
My pleasure
What fabulous perspective and inspiring takeaway I’ve gained
Thank you. I'm glad it helped.