Thanks Adam. This piece really spoke to me. I’m English btw.
A couple of things.
On the bleach front, I have noticed that a regular reply when you point out Trump hasn’t actually said the ‘something’ you were literally just told he definitely said, is just a shrug, and the line ’Well it’s the sort of thing he would say’.
And secondly, I’ve experienced a similar thing to ‘Your boy Tucker’.
Here in England I get ‘Your guy Farage’. Don’t get me wrong. I like some of Farage’s policies but I’ve never expressed a preference for him or Reform in conversation. I prefer to talk about specific policies, or issues. But the tendency is to immediately
‘Lump me in’ with all the perceived ‘baddies’.
That way it is easier to dismiss any points I make as simply illegitimate.
There’s loads more I could say on all this, but I’ll leave it there.
This essay resonated with me because I experienced something similar during COVID. I had made a friend out of a tragedy that we both had endured. Even though we were 3,000 miles apart, we talked often across a range of subjects and I grew to really love her. We didn’t talk politics much but we were both about the same on the political spectrum.
Eventually she succumbed to TDS, and it became so severe that I was tiptoeing around the most benign subjects that I KNEW we would have agreed about prior to Trump. When I tried to discuss COVID in terms of plain old common sense and a little thing called FREEDOM, she was all in on the hysteria and there was no questioning anything. When she told me that she was fine with mandating a shot I did not need and thereby restricting my ability to travel or dine out or WORK a job, I can only say that I couldn’t get past it.
I guess I could go back to walking on eggshells but politics is interesting to me and I am not going to become nervous about supporting our president or one of his policies. I am friends with her brother and he assured me that her hatred for Trump is more visceral and irrational than ever. I realize now my problem is not that she’s against Trump - it’s that she can no longer analyze a point of view or trustworthy information without making it about him. I’m all about debating and discussing but you can’t debate and discuss with people like her. It isn’t about an IDEA. It’s about a PERSON. That’s not the kind of conversation that teaches or persuades.
I 1000% agree with you. There is no point in talking to someone like this. My general rule is that I don't engage in bad faith conversations with people. Keeps me sane.
Agree. Debate is good when its kind rational and respectful not when they cant even politely agree to disagree. When its freinds I can sadly walk away , when its much loved family , I avoid the topic .. im in Australia and we have Albanese derangement syndrome .
Thank you so much for writing this Adam, it is very helpful. Many feel justified in having and treating others contemptuously if we don’t get in line. In my case, it’s been family, and my daughter (a mid thirties) who cut me out which makes things very tricky. Thank you for putting into words how I feel while still being able to keep it in proper perspective. I often think about writing my daughter to tell her how I feel, while still framing it as “we disagree”, not “you are bad and I am good”. I also would not turn people away just because they are socialist. However, dialogue is not allowed, and only people with the accept viewpoints are allowed to speak, it is very disrespectful, and people start thinking they can treat you with contempt, then it’s not nice anymore.
Im hearing you i have 38 yo son, Who i love with all my heart. I have not been cut off however he told me he will not even agree to disagree so I just avoid any of these type of topics and work my way around them because my love for him is more important than my opinion being heard.
Yes Kaylene, I feel that way too, and so I had never talked about any topics that were political or controversial. Unfortunately, that wasn’t enough. She decided she not to speak to me any longer anyway. She just asked me the day after Election Day who I voted for, and I told her. Even then, I never stated why, or got into it. That was the last day she talked to me. She just told me in a text that I voted against her existence. Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate it,
I feel for you .. sadly any of that generation have been brought up not to be able to have healthy debate and feel if you dont agree your against me, so your out. 😌I feel for you ..
My husband has a cousin like your friend. We 've tried over the years to get together and talk about tge trillion other topics in the world beside politics. He finds the most convoluted ways to bring it back to the current administration and the president. I'm done. After 12 years, I can't do it anymore.
The funniest thing I didn't mention was he did the exact same thing your friend did. He kept yelling "Your boy Trump". The exact same insult...in a restaurant...at a dull scream-like voice level. I was horrified that he would call attention to our table like that. They’ve taught themselves the same language. It's almost eerie.
You’ve just described everything that’s wrong with our society right now. It used to be that we were all individuals with our own nuanced opinions on a variety of topics. No political party completely matched my views, but I tried to pick the candidates that were closest. I didn’t even know most of my friends’ views on various topics, and if we got into a debate, we would each respectfully express our nuanced views. I generally wouldn’t draw much of a conclusion from their views on one topic from knowing their views on a different topic. Even if they had very different opinions than me and I believed them to be misguided, this had little impact on our relationship since it wouldn’t come up very often.
Now, our human tendency toward tribalism is being exploited by those who want to bring our society down. Those on the left believe that everyone on the right (or even not sufficiently left) are dictatorial bigots, and those on the right believe that everyone on the left is a criminal, immoral communist revolutionary. There are only two tribes, and any variation from the beliefs of the left, at least, will get you kicked out of the tribe. (I see somewhat less of that behavior from the right but I also may be biased.)
Both sides think the other side is evil, almost inhuman, and since they believe the other side is doing abhorrent and aggressive things, they believe aggressive behavior on their side is justified.
This is how revolutions start, and that scares me. How can people not see how they are being manipulated by foreign powers who don’t have our best interests at heart? Our media, publishing, entertainment, and most importantly education have been taken over. Social media provides bad actors unprecedented access to citizens of countries they’ve never been to and want to destroy.
Your former friend has completely succumbed to the tribalism, brainwashed by manipulators. If you deviate in any way from the accepted set of beliefs for his tribe, you are automatically considered part of the other tribe and must believe all the most extreme things that he attributes to that tribe.
All of politics these days seems to consist of people condemning others for what they imagine they believe, instead of what they actually believe.
My own son told me I am on the wrong side of history because I have some right leaning opinions (I also have left leaning opinions,) Here in Australia Pauline Hanson (independent politician"One Nation")wants to put Australians first and limit immigration which is at an all time high and turning our once thriving country into a third world country where Australians cant afford a home,electricity and many now in poverty and homeless. I shared one of her posts and he told me she racist as the propaganda machine has falsley portrayed her that way . I choose not to push it as he is more important to me than my political view
As an urban white woman, I've been on the receiving end of that condescending attitude - often by white males, but years ago by a black man who assumed I was a dumb young thing to be played. I even had the 'your boy' encounter. A friend lost her best friend because she questioned masks saying they were ineffective. Her friend agreed but broke the friendship because she believed the performative art was what one did for the collective good. Her friend is a well to do socialist.
As for Trump, I watched what became 'bleach.' At first, I thought he was referencing the use of ozone water, but later realized he was probably discussing chlorine dioxide, which is indeed a very useful product to use that does have bleaching-type properties. Dr. Pierre Kory just published a book on it.
I would like to hear about your view on the cage match between Rep. Sewell and RFK, Jr. He, I assume, using statistics, pointed out that Black young males are medicated at a very high dosage, and it needs to be addressed. He also discussed how those addicted to opiates, etc., should be sent to farms to rehabilitate their health and connection with nature. In a posted video segment he did reference that they will have to be re-parented but it seemed like he was referencing the person undergoing rehab. Considering he was a heroin addict, I think he knows a thing or two about addiction. And the claims he doesn't have a medical license is so ludicrous. Any attorney working in that space has to know the medicine and often better than doctors who are not experts. If what he says is true, why can't they be discussed. How are we going to help anyone if we live by lies?
I like to debate politics but the second someone rolls their eyes or becomes condescending, then I've lost respect and either become argumentative or walk away. I've experienced that condescension too many times to count.
What is interesting is that many who proclaim to be 'left' have pretty conservative views. They don't seem to make the connection between their voting patterns and the results. It is like someone who keeps eating cake and confused why they are getting fat.
You're wise, I think. I no longer give my time to argue with people who are (per my spider sense, and that's pretty accurate) suddenly reaching out with no open agenda but clearly have a secret agenda. They aren't worth the time. They don't really want to be friends - they want to score points in some fashion if only to be able to say "well I did TRY." No, they're not - they're not sincere. I no longer try to engage and convince people - that's a job (in my case) for the younger and more energetic.
I had something similar happen this morning. My old best friend (we’re political opposites and his are to the left) texted about a person from our grammar school days. We went back and forth about the old days and people from then. It was good. I’ve kept my distance since he made some nasty comments around Covid time. That’s why he’s my “old” best friend. We text and that’s for the most part been it.
Anyway, I made the mistake of sending him a Substack column by Jay Mariotti about the White Sox and The Atlantic. It centered around the ridiculous promotion the Sox are having in giving out papal “hats” with Sox logos. Frankly, it disgusts me and I said so. I didn’t think twice about sending it to a fellow Catholic Schooler. The response was not what I expected, although in retrospect I probably should have. He felt that it was a nice gimmick, what’s the big deal. Then he proceeded to send the Trump meme of being the savior (I agree, not got). But then it was Trump this, Trump that. It was the classic if the left does this, it’s ok, but if the right, especially Trump, does it, it’s terrible. I pretty much let it go. But he then got the knife in the back (again) in sending a link from one of the news stations about how the Pope was happy the Cubs lost in last year’s playoffs. I just replied, “yeah, I saw it and wasn’t impressed”. What I didn’t say was I didn’t watch the video or read anything on the link, the headline was enough. That was the end of it.
Didn’t mean to ramble, but, it’s a lot like your situation and maybe I need to answer less of his texts. This isn’t the first time I’ve gone through something like this with him.
It's tough because you've known him for a long time. I just dont have time to walk on eggshells with anyone. It's not worth your sanity. Plus it seems like the pros and starting to get outweighed by the cons in your dynamic. Take care of yourself. God bless.
I can relate to your experiences. Thankfully, I have 3 democrat former colleagues/friends who've not become jerks over politics. But there are quite a few others who I no longer talk to. It's been quite an eye-opener to see what little it took to manipulate people into hysteria and a willingness to drop friends and family.
I can’t even talk to my best friend of 37 years. He can’t stop arguing about politics.
I went from an independent democratic supporter to a mostly maga guy over the past 14 years. Slowly at first, asking the un-askable questions when my circle of friends discussed politics (we did that a lot).
And they started to drop off slowly.
But 2020 changed everything. The cult was unleashed. There was no questioning anything. COVID restrictions (or lack thereof when it suited political purposes), 700 Floyd riots with 37 killed, the Biden laptop, attacks on churches, etc.
Of course, this continued over the whole of the Biden admin.
I’ve always been a policy guy, not a politics or popularity guy. I began infuriating them by asking which Trump policy they didn’t like, or which Biden policy they supported. They could never answer. They’d just mutter and fumble words, and inevitably insult me.
This is where we are. I have tried to hold onto my best friend, but let the rest go. However, I am now even avoiding him.
We meet up for dinner, I say, “No politics”. He arrives, I ask how it’s going, he immediately starts ranting about politics.
I got up and left the last time we met up. Told him I’d call him in March, but April has nearly passed and we’ve exchanged one text.
They’re too much. Let them go and be happy. There are plenty of other friends in the world.
Thanks Adam. This piece really spoke to me. I’m English btw.
A couple of things.
On the bleach front, I have noticed that a regular reply when you point out Trump hasn’t actually said the ‘something’ you were literally just told he definitely said, is just a shrug, and the line ’Well it’s the sort of thing he would say’.
And secondly, I’ve experienced a similar thing to ‘Your boy Tucker’.
Here in England I get ‘Your guy Farage’. Don’t get me wrong. I like some of Farage’s policies but I’ve never expressed a preference for him or Reform in conversation. I prefer to talk about specific policies, or issues. But the tendency is to immediately
‘Lump me in’ with all the perceived ‘baddies’.
That way it is easier to dismiss any points I make as simply illegitimate.
There’s loads more I could say on all this, but I’ll leave it there.
Anyway. Great piece. 👍
Man, lots of similarities.
Thank you for taking the time to read it. God bless.
Thanks Adam. A pleasure, I enjoy your stuff. All the best to you and yours.
Thank you. God bless you and enjoy your weekend.
’Well it’s the sort of thing he would say’ great point. That is what they do say!
This essay resonated with me because I experienced something similar during COVID. I had made a friend out of a tragedy that we both had endured. Even though we were 3,000 miles apart, we talked often across a range of subjects and I grew to really love her. We didn’t talk politics much but we were both about the same on the political spectrum.
Eventually she succumbed to TDS, and it became so severe that I was tiptoeing around the most benign subjects that I KNEW we would have agreed about prior to Trump. When I tried to discuss COVID in terms of plain old common sense and a little thing called FREEDOM, she was all in on the hysteria and there was no questioning anything. When she told me that she was fine with mandating a shot I did not need and thereby restricting my ability to travel or dine out or WORK a job, I can only say that I couldn’t get past it.
I guess I could go back to walking on eggshells but politics is interesting to me and I am not going to become nervous about supporting our president or one of his policies. I am friends with her brother and he assured me that her hatred for Trump is more visceral and irrational than ever. I realize now my problem is not that she’s against Trump - it’s that she can no longer analyze a point of view or trustworthy information without making it about him. I’m all about debating and discussing but you can’t debate and discuss with people like her. It isn’t about an IDEA. It’s about a PERSON. That’s not the kind of conversation that teaches or persuades.
I 1000% agree with you. There is no point in talking to someone like this. My general rule is that I don't engage in bad faith conversations with people. Keeps me sane.
Agree. Debate is good when its kind rational and respectful not when they cant even politely agree to disagree. When its freinds I can sadly walk away , when its much loved family , I avoid the topic .. im in Australia and we have Albanese derangement syndrome .
Thank you so much for writing this Adam, it is very helpful. Many feel justified in having and treating others contemptuously if we don’t get in line. In my case, it’s been family, and my daughter (a mid thirties) who cut me out which makes things very tricky. Thank you for putting into words how I feel while still being able to keep it in proper perspective. I often think about writing my daughter to tell her how I feel, while still framing it as “we disagree”, not “you are bad and I am good”. I also would not turn people away just because they are socialist. However, dialogue is not allowed, and only people with the accept viewpoints are allowed to speak, it is very disrespectful, and people start thinking they can treat you with contempt, then it’s not nice anymore.
Exactly. Contempt is the right word.
Im hearing you i have 38 yo son, Who i love with all my heart. I have not been cut off however he told me he will not even agree to disagree so I just avoid any of these type of topics and work my way around them because my love for him is more important than my opinion being heard.
Yes Kaylene, I feel that way too, and so I had never talked about any topics that were political or controversial. Unfortunately, that wasn’t enough. She decided she not to speak to me any longer anyway. She just asked me the day after Election Day who I voted for, and I told her. Even then, I never stated why, or got into it. That was the last day she talked to me. She just told me in a text that I voted against her existence. Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate it,
I feel for you .. sadly any of that generation have been brought up not to be able to have healthy debate and feel if you dont agree your against me, so your out. 😌I feel for you ..
My husband has a cousin like your friend. We 've tried over the years to get together and talk about tge trillion other topics in the world beside politics. He finds the most convoluted ways to bring it back to the current administration and the president. I'm done. After 12 years, I can't do it anymore.
I don't blame you
The funniest thing I didn't mention was he did the exact same thing your friend did. He kept yelling "Your boy Trump". The exact same insult...in a restaurant...at a dull scream-like voice level. I was horrified that he would call attention to our table like that. They’ve taught themselves the same language. It's almost eerie.
You’ve just described everything that’s wrong with our society right now. It used to be that we were all individuals with our own nuanced opinions on a variety of topics. No political party completely matched my views, but I tried to pick the candidates that were closest. I didn’t even know most of my friends’ views on various topics, and if we got into a debate, we would each respectfully express our nuanced views. I generally wouldn’t draw much of a conclusion from their views on one topic from knowing their views on a different topic. Even if they had very different opinions than me and I believed them to be misguided, this had little impact on our relationship since it wouldn’t come up very often.
Now, our human tendency toward tribalism is being exploited by those who want to bring our society down. Those on the left believe that everyone on the right (or even not sufficiently left) are dictatorial bigots, and those on the right believe that everyone on the left is a criminal, immoral communist revolutionary. There are only two tribes, and any variation from the beliefs of the left, at least, will get you kicked out of the tribe. (I see somewhat less of that behavior from the right but I also may be biased.)
Both sides think the other side is evil, almost inhuman, and since they believe the other side is doing abhorrent and aggressive things, they believe aggressive behavior on their side is justified.
This is how revolutions start, and that scares me. How can people not see how they are being manipulated by foreign powers who don’t have our best interests at heart? Our media, publishing, entertainment, and most importantly education have been taken over. Social media provides bad actors unprecedented access to citizens of countries they’ve never been to and want to destroy.
Your former friend has completely succumbed to the tribalism, brainwashed by manipulators. If you deviate in any way from the accepted set of beliefs for his tribe, you are automatically considered part of the other tribe and must believe all the most extreme things that he attributes to that tribe.
All of politics these days seems to consist of people condemning others for what they imagine they believe, instead of what they actually believe.
My own son told me I am on the wrong side of history because I have some right leaning opinions (I also have left leaning opinions,) Here in Australia Pauline Hanson (independent politician"One Nation")wants to put Australians first and limit immigration which is at an all time high and turning our once thriving country into a third world country where Australians cant afford a home,electricity and many now in poverty and homeless. I shared one of her posts and he told me she racist as the propaganda machine has falsley portrayed her that way . I choose not to push it as he is more important to me than my political view
As an urban white woman, I've been on the receiving end of that condescending attitude - often by white males, but years ago by a black man who assumed I was a dumb young thing to be played. I even had the 'your boy' encounter. A friend lost her best friend because she questioned masks saying they were ineffective. Her friend agreed but broke the friendship because she believed the performative art was what one did for the collective good. Her friend is a well to do socialist.
As for Trump, I watched what became 'bleach.' At first, I thought he was referencing the use of ozone water, but later realized he was probably discussing chlorine dioxide, which is indeed a very useful product to use that does have bleaching-type properties. Dr. Pierre Kory just published a book on it.
I would like to hear about your view on the cage match between Rep. Sewell and RFK, Jr. He, I assume, using statistics, pointed out that Black young males are medicated at a very high dosage, and it needs to be addressed. He also discussed how those addicted to opiates, etc., should be sent to farms to rehabilitate their health and connection with nature. In a posted video segment he did reference that they will have to be re-parented but it seemed like he was referencing the person undergoing rehab. Considering he was a heroin addict, I think he knows a thing or two about addiction. And the claims he doesn't have a medical license is so ludicrous. Any attorney working in that space has to know the medicine and often better than doctors who are not experts. If what he says is true, why can't they be discussed. How are we going to help anyone if we live by lies?
Honestly, I haven't been following that between RFK. I've kinda been in my own world for a bit working on this trucking film. Apologies.
and that is a far better use of time. the other is just theater to put up on X.
I like to debate politics but the second someone rolls their eyes or becomes condescending, then I've lost respect and either become argumentative or walk away. I've experienced that condescension too many times to count.
What is interesting is that many who proclaim to be 'left' have pretty conservative views. They don't seem to make the connection between their voting patterns and the results. It is like someone who keeps eating cake and confused why they are getting fat.
I've lost friends here in Ireland too.
They love putting people into groups.
They love their echo chambers
To the democrats, people aren't individuals, but voting blocs, and that's how they're treated.
Cool, now you can just forward him the article. Some people are there for a season, others for a reason. He was a muse.
You're wise, I think. I no longer give my time to argue with people who are (per my spider sense, and that's pretty accurate) suddenly reaching out with no open agenda but clearly have a secret agenda. They aren't worth the time. They don't really want to be friends - they want to score points in some fashion if only to be able to say "well I did TRY." No, they're not - they're not sincere. I no longer try to engage and convince people - that's a job (in my case) for the younger and more energetic.
Thanks for another excellent ABC piece. Your analysis— of so-called “friends” and their real motives and mind-sets—-is spot-on!
Bravo to you for the wisdom, courage and confidence of not falling for it.
Life is too short to keep people around that make us feel poorly.
I had something similar happen this morning. My old best friend (we’re political opposites and his are to the left) texted about a person from our grammar school days. We went back and forth about the old days and people from then. It was good. I’ve kept my distance since he made some nasty comments around Covid time. That’s why he’s my “old” best friend. We text and that’s for the most part been it.
Anyway, I made the mistake of sending him a Substack column by Jay Mariotti about the White Sox and The Atlantic. It centered around the ridiculous promotion the Sox are having in giving out papal “hats” with Sox logos. Frankly, it disgusts me and I said so. I didn’t think twice about sending it to a fellow Catholic Schooler. The response was not what I expected, although in retrospect I probably should have. He felt that it was a nice gimmick, what’s the big deal. Then he proceeded to send the Trump meme of being the savior (I agree, not got). But then it was Trump this, Trump that. It was the classic if the left does this, it’s ok, but if the right, especially Trump, does it, it’s terrible. I pretty much let it go. But he then got the knife in the back (again) in sending a link from one of the news stations about how the Pope was happy the Cubs lost in last year’s playoffs. I just replied, “yeah, I saw it and wasn’t impressed”. What I didn’t say was I didn’t watch the video or read anything on the link, the headline was enough. That was the end of it.
Didn’t mean to ramble, but, it’s a lot like your situation and maybe I need to answer less of his texts. This isn’t the first time I’ve gone through something like this with him.
It's tough because you've known him for a long time. I just dont have time to walk on eggshells with anyone. It's not worth your sanity. Plus it seems like the pros and starting to get outweighed by the cons in your dynamic. Take care of yourself. God bless.
Thanks, Adam. You do the same.
I can relate to your experiences. Thankfully, I have 3 democrat former colleagues/friends who've not become jerks over politics. But there are quite a few others who I no longer talk to. It's been quite an eye-opener to see what little it took to manipulate people into hysteria and a willingness to drop friends and family.
One of the best things I ever learned was to recognize toxic people and limit my exposure thereto.
Been there. Better to let them go and move on.
I can’t even talk to my best friend of 37 years. He can’t stop arguing about politics.
I went from an independent democratic supporter to a mostly maga guy over the past 14 years. Slowly at first, asking the un-askable questions when my circle of friends discussed politics (we did that a lot).
And they started to drop off slowly.
But 2020 changed everything. The cult was unleashed. There was no questioning anything. COVID restrictions (or lack thereof when it suited political purposes), 700 Floyd riots with 37 killed, the Biden laptop, attacks on churches, etc.
Of course, this continued over the whole of the Biden admin.
I’ve always been a policy guy, not a politics or popularity guy. I began infuriating them by asking which Trump policy they didn’t like, or which Biden policy they supported. They could never answer. They’d just mutter and fumble words, and inevitably insult me.
This is where we are. I have tried to hold onto my best friend, but let the rest go. However, I am now even avoiding him.
We meet up for dinner, I say, “No politics”. He arrives, I ask how it’s going, he immediately starts ranting about politics.
I got up and left the last time we met up. Told him I’d call him in March, but April has nearly passed and we’ve exchanged one text.
They’re too much. Let them go and be happy. There are plenty of other friends in the world.
I'm sorry you went through that too.
You're absolutely right.
Sorta makes you wonder about the boundary between acquaintance and friendship, sometimes.